this is for the change en ch4? damn, damage has been done

Toby might have taken the mind-rape meme a bit too seriously

perjuro said:
this is for the change en ch4? damn, damage has been done

aphextwink said:
Toby might have taken the mind-rape meme a bit too seriously

I am honestly extremely disappointed in Toby for retconning it. I know it's his right to update the game as he pleases but it frustrates me that he altered the game in response to how people interpreted it. And now some people are taking it as a reason to attack people for having had interpretation of Kris being forced to rape Noelle in the first place. It’s a very lame way to stamp out art interpretations. Also seriously Toby is a smart guy, he should’ve known what the deflowered rose represents so you’re telling me he was blind to the fact that a fandom known for theorycrafting would interpret it a certain way? It’s just cowardice at best and hack writing at worst.

scotch0fhorus said:
I am honestly extremely disappointed in Toby for retconning it. I know it's his right to update the game as he pleases but it frustrates me that he altered the game in response to how people interpreted it. And now some people are taking it as a reason to attack people for having had interpretation of Kris being forced to rape Noelle in the first place. It’s a very lame way to stamp out art interpretations. Also seriously Toby is a smart guy, he should’ve known what the deflowered rose represents so you’re telling me he was blind to the fact that a fandom known for theorycrafting would interpret it a certain way? It’s just cowardice at best and hack writing at worst.

What... What did I miss?!

ilikeducks said:
What... What did I miss?!

A detail that could be interpreted as us making Kris rape Noelle has been removed from chapter 4's Snowgrave route. While it was probably just symbolism, Toby removed it and now everyone is fighting over whether removing it is a good thing or not.

ilikeducks said:
What... What did I miss?!

tl;dr a scene got updated to lessen implications of sexual assault

I can't believe we live in a timeline with canon deltarune LGD...

scotch0fhorus said:
I am honestly extremely disappointed in Toby for retconning it. I know it's his right to update the game as he pleases but it frustrates me that he altered the game in response to how people interpreted it. And now some people are taking it as a reason to attack people for having had interpretation of Kris being forced to rape Noelle in the first place. It’s a very lame way to stamp out art interpretations. Also seriously Toby is a smart guy, he should’ve known what the deflowered rose represents so you’re telling me he was blind to the fact that a fandom known for theorycrafting would interpret it a certain way? It’s just cowardice at best and hack writing at worst.

Yeah, he prolly felt the backlash would have been too much, or that he went too far with the implications, a shame cause I honestly think Toby could've make such a dark topic work, looking at what we had so far, and we have seen people like Dingaling make genuine masterpieces with even more worse themes than we have seen in Deltarune, there truly was potential for very dark interpretations although I don't it would it was his intention to make the story so explicit or literal.

Are people really getting upset that there isnt a teenage rape subplot in Deltarune?

mm336 said:
Are people really getting upset that there isnt a teenage rape subplot in Deltarune?

No, because the context and implications are still the same, if slightly more ambiguous. They're mad because they feel Toby was forced to change the game rather than accepting that Toby changing it was also Toby's choice.

popgasm said:
No, because the context and implications are still the same, if slightly more ambiguous. They're mad because they feel Toby was forced to change the game rather than accepting that Toby changing it was also Toby's choice.

i mean i get if people prefered the previous imagery, but it really feels wierd that people are suddenly calling him a hack just because he might have decided that the implications were too heavy handed for a game like deltarune

popgasm said:
No, because the context and implications are still the same, if slightly more ambiguous. They're mad because they feel Toby was forced to change the game rather than accepting that Toby changing it was also Toby's choice.

Have you considered that maybe just MAYBE you got the wrong idea?

Fuck yeah we got canon rape in the game

mm336 said:
Are people really getting upset that there isnt a teenage rape subplot in Deltarune?

People are upset that a change had to be made at all, regardless of whatever the reason may be, since it was unneeded. The entire subplot is still there, the scene that leads up to it is there, which in itself could imply rape. I know a lot of westerners get really uppity over sexual themes, but this IS a T-rated game after all, I'm tired of the constant infantilization of media and how it just erases or destroys art.
4-5 years of development on top of being left in release did any of the handful of developers possibly bat an eye? That's why people are upset, that's why people call him a hack for caving inward causing a streisand effect instead of just leaving it. I hate how this is now going to be a part of fandom discourse for the next couple years, or until forums decide to clamp down on it and prevent people from discussing it.

char_aznable said:
People are upset that a change had to be made at all, regardless of whatever the reason may be, since it was unneeded. The entire subplot is still there, the scene that leads up to it is there, which in itself could imply rape. I know a lot of westerners get really uppity over sexual themes, but this IS a T-rated game after all, I'm tired of the constant infantilization of media and how it just erases or destroys art.
4-5 years of development on top of being left in release did any of the handful of developers possibly bat an eye? That's why people are upset, that's why people call him a hack for caving inward causing a streisand effect instead of just leaving it. I hate how this is now going to be a part of fandom discourse for the next couple years, or until forums decide to clamp down on it and prevent people from discussing it.

people can change their minds. maybe toby just felt that the implications didnt fit the game.its his game and his story.

also name me some t-rated games that involve teenage sexual assault. im not saying rape cant be a subject in games, mouthwashing has them but it is essential to the story, tone and themes of the game. it also unlike deltarune didnt have a t-rating

Look I know I'm just a lurker and shouldn't put my hat in the ring, but honestly I just think having that kind of implication would just get so much worse for the game as a whole. Unless he wanted a potential SA victim to immediately fall in love with their assailant and be excited to go to the festival the next day with them which would look so, so bad on Toby. Do things happen like that in real life? Sure. But let's not pretend it's good writing to give so few consequences to a character for doing something like that. So if he needs to remove something because he realized people were going too far with something - especially after enough people called it "the mindbreak route" - then I don't think it's so bad. Heck I didn't even know any of this until I saw this post, and I think that's the majority of people who played the SG route.

ephyra said:
you care too much

you care too little

Haha I love doing pacifist

The inspiration for this image.

<3

Honestly I just wanna goon to Noelle's mom, y'all doin' too much on all sides

list22 said:
Haha I love doing pacifist

i recruita da enemi

temp7 said:
The inspiration for this image.

Well more accurately it's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld3_bf8dPAE

tvattrcerebr said:
Well more accurately it's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld3_bf8dPAE

True.

post #4164946

scotch0fhorus said:
I am honestly extremely disappointed in Toby for retconning it. I know it's his right to update the game as he pleases but it frustrates me that he altered the game in response to how people interpreted it. And now some people are taking it as a reason to attack people for having had interpretation of Kris being forced to rape Noelle in the first place. It’s a very lame way to stamp out art interpretations. Also seriously Toby is a smart guy, he should’ve known what the deflowered rose represents so you’re telling me he was blind to the fact that a fandom known for theorycrafting would interpret it a certain way? It’s just cowardice at best and hack writing at worst.

damn it he removed it?

scotch0fhorus said: Also seriously Toby is a smart guy, he should’ve known what the deflowered rose represents so you’re telling me he was blind to the fact that a fandom known for theorycrafting would interpret it a certain way? It’s just cowardice at best and hack writing at worst.

i personally thought it was a very striking visual and was pretty cool, i haven’t seen the patched version so idk if it was replaced with an equally strong visual or just completely removed, but i feel like it should’ve been obvious to everyone that toby wouldn’t put a plotline where you force a character to rape another character in his game

somelatinphrase said:
Have you considered that maybe just MAYBE you got the wrong idea?

it's still literally mind rape even if it wasn't a physical one...

mm336 said:
i mean i get if people preferred the previous imagery, but it really feels weird that people are suddenly calling him a hack just because he might have decided that the implications were too heavy handed for a game like deltarune

With all due respect to actual rape victims. Its a game in which you can all but force a young girl to become a quite literally ice cold serial murderer. It really doesnt get much more heavy handed than that. It just feels a bit silly to me for him to draw a line like that when he writes noelle to do so much dark shit. And mind you even to the point she clearly begins to enjoy it by the berdley fight. Before she realized it was him she was obviously ready willing and raring to go in killing him.

somelatinphrase said:
Have you considered that maybe just MAYBE you got the wrong idea?

Yes. I have a lot of confidence in Toby's storytelling. I did not state my interpretation of the scene as imy opinion was irrelevant to the question I was answering.

I personally believed the imagery was used because the ramifications of what happened will strongly parallel to what it was referencing as time es in the story. That can come to in the future regardless of metaphors used to foreshadow it. I assumed repeated motifs of "Love", of "[MAKING]", and "Swoon" were all ideas considered and toyed with long before the Internet had anything to say about it.

But maybe just maybe I got the wrong idea.

Anyway if anyone got more of that Mizzle art or more cute reindeer, I'll be checking those out

reminder that Fiction can't hurt you

I think Toby knew what he was doing. That's why he released the primary version that way at all, then quietly patched it out in a hotfix.

It was so that people would see it and his original vision would not be censored, ultimately, in the minds of those who sought it.

Ok im blacklisting deltarune til i play the newest chapters

I feel like this is will could parallels to Digimon 02 dark ocean plot, maybe a it is supposed to be a metaphor for SA and something... well... bad is "born" form this tragedy

It's crystal clear that wasn't the intention by the fact it was removed. Flowers have symbolized many thing in literature. I associate wilting flowers with death.

I'll be more than happy when this nonsense burns itself out.

derpyderpdoo said:
It's crystal clear that wasn't the intention by the fact it was removed. Flowers have symbolized many thing in literature. I associate wilting flowers with death.

I'll be more than happy when this nonsense burns itself out.

Out of all the discourses the fandom has gotten into, I think this is by far the dumbest one

Now, I'm just a lurker but this drama to me seems really dumb, The author made a change to his story to better fit his vision, so what?

Honestly I give it like a week or two before everyone forgets about this

It's worth noting this is the first point Deltarune became a paid project, including platforms like Nintendo's console.

There's more factors involved in sidestepping this whole issue than just artistic integrity.

He has staff needing to be paid, not to mention his own cost of living. And this is an ambitious project. Why damage it with unintentionally misplaced imagery?

I'm not a fan of making forced changes, but I can understand the consequences of both sides too. And in the end, it's a very, very small change.

Have your own headcanon if you want.

I think something is severely wrong with everyone who's upset about Toby removing the unintended rape implications.

popgasm said:
No, because the context and implications are still the same, if slightly more ambiguous. They're mad because they feel Toby was forced to change the game rather than accepting that Toby changing it was also Toby's choice.

I like the noncon stuff, but I think it's a little silly to be mad at Toby for removing an implication he clearly didn't intend. He is making a T for Teens game, not an Adults Only game, and he was probably made uncomfortable by the hasty assumption that he meant physical rape was happening, rather than bending to minority fan outcries.

I do, genuinely, wonder how it slipped through the cracks of his mind and (presumably) the people who stress-tested that route (if any), because defloration/deflowering is a common word for taking someone's virginity and it's easy to read a rose losing its petals as 'defloration', but it is still clear from his nearly instant response that he didn't mean for it to look THAT bad. Whatever some think, this isn't Sweet Baby Inc or whatever 'woke' brigade at work (not that SBI is even doing as much as the common 4channer seems to believe). It's literally just Toby taking steps to ensure his vision isn't misinterpreted - which, I think it's fine if you're a little disappointed by, but it's his decision to do that, so I don't see how people can rag on him for doing it.

zzagoni said:
There was no deflowered rose, what you might have saw was an edit some fuckhead made, the actual thing before the change was made showed drops of blood falling from her finger after the screen goes dark

now thats just a straight lie, that was the first patch after the rose

stellarfantasy69 said:
tbh I'm not much of fan of canon lgd anyway. but I do find it pretty funny this conversation is happening in the first place

Whatever you say buddy

zduy said:
Except for the fact that Kris is canonically non-binary, and there's no confirmation of their birth sex, so for all that you know Kris could be AFAB and have a vagina, so your kink was never canon to begin with

I wonder, did telling the truth really make everyone mad here? Like sorry to burst y'all bubble, but Kris isn't canonically male, they're non-binary, and their birth sex is unknown

zduy said:
I wonder, did telling the truth really make everyone mad here? Like sorry to burst y'all bubble, but Kris isn't canonically male, they're non-binary, and their birth sex is unknown

I thought he was undefined like Frisk, or am I just out of the loop?

bighairy1903 said:
I thought he was undefined like Frisk, or am I just out of the loop?

*They, and no, Kris isn't "undefined" like Frisk or Chara, everyone in the game uses they/them to refer to them, and I mean EVERYONE in the game, and the narrative already says that Kris isn't a "blank state" for the Player to insert themselves, Kris is their own person, with their own personality and life

zduy said:
*They, and no, Kris isn't "undefined" like Frisk or Chara, everyone in the game uses they/them to refer to them, and I mean EVERYONE in the game, and the narrative already says that Kris isn't a "blank state" for the Player to insert themselves, Kris is their own person, with their own personality and life

Everyone called Chara and Frisk they/them too.

bighairy1903 said:
I thought he was undefined like Frisk, or am I just out of the loop?

Kris isn't the player's self insert, they're a character with their own backstory and life separate from the player. The people who grew up with them refer to them with they/them pronouns.
Seems pretty defined to me.

lazy-lizard said:
I think something is severely wrong with everyone who's upset about Toby removing the unintended rape implications.

Creepy people that think harassment is the way to fulfill their kink

And after all that...the red dot was switched out for a metaphor for breaking Noelle's mind into a thousand pieces while putting our thorns in her soul.

And both sides of the debate agree that is way better than the rose.

God this whole pocket meme war was stupid.

nelljoestar said:
Creepy people that think harassment is the way to fulfill their kink

yeah cause rape in a story is only a kink thing...
really sick of "people" who say shit like,
"Oh they only added this for the shock value."
that kind of attitude is disgusting.

nelljoestar said:
Creepy people that think harassment is the way to fulfill their kink

Of all persons to say that? I seem to a significant LGD kink attached to that name.

scotch0fhorus said:
I am honestly extremely disappointed in Toby for retconning it. I know it's his right to update the game as he pleases but it frustrates me that he altered the game in response to how people interpreted it. And now some people are taking it as a reason to attack people for having had interpretation of Kris being forced to rape Noelle in the first place. It’s a very lame way to stamp out art interpretations. Also seriously Toby is a smart guy, he should’ve known what the deflowered rose represents so you’re telling me he was blind to the fact that a fandom known for theorycrafting would interpret it a certain way? It’s just cowardice at best and hack writing at worst.

It's entirely possible that that particular scene was made awhile ago and he forgot to change it. I dont think it's cowardice on his part for not wanting people to spread and misinterpret a scene involving children. Its a bit more HEAVY than sans is ness type shit. Oversights and misjudgements happen. There are still many things to analyze and interpret about the route, even the replacement scene which is better... Its his art and he can tell it as he pleases.

p0ngsy said:
It's entirely possible that that particular scene was made awhile ago and he forgot to change it. I dont think it's cowardice on his part for not wanting people to spread and misinterpret a scene involving children. Its a bit more HEAVY than sans is ness type shit. Oversights and misjudgements happen. There are still many things to analyze and interpret about the route, even the replacement scene which is better... Its his art and he can tell it as he pleases.

The same franchise deals with:

Child murder (Asgore in Undertale)
Genocide (Undertale in general)
Drunk mothers bringing strangers home after a divorce, in front of the child (Toriel in Deltarune chapter 4)

And more. And there's multiple references to sexuality in Deltarune beyond the Snowgrave implications.

temp7 said:
The same franchise deals with:

Child murder (Asgore in Undertale)
Genocide (Undertale in general)
Drunk mothers bringing strangers home after a divorce, in front of the child (Toriel in Deltarune chapter 4)

And more. And there's multiple references to sexuality in Deltarune beyond the Snowgrave implications.

More people have rape trauma than genocide trauma, largely because most victims of genocide... don't survive, as the name implies.
Not to downplay people whose lives were ruined rather than taken by the Holocaust or any other large-scale genocide, this is just the reason I believe Toby didn't want it to be seen as sexual.
Aside from not being what he intended in the first place.

dreamdivider said:
More people have rape trauma than genocide trauma, largely because most victims of genocide... don't survive, as the name implies.
Not to downplay people whose lives were ruined rather than taken by the Holocaust or any other large-scale genocide, this is just the reason I believe Toby didn't want it to be seen as sexual.
Aside from not being what he intended in the first place.

Given the romantic subtext (dating shoes, LOVE) and the marriage allegories (ring, white clothes) and the more raunchy implications ("YOU'VE BEEN MAKING [Hyperlink Blocked]!") I don't think it's accurate to say that wasn't the intent. It's a clear visual metaphor.

Giving Noelle the ring while she's wearing all white isn't a literal marriage. But the allegories are blatant.

temp7 said:
Given the romantic subtext (dating shoes, LOVE) and the marriage allegories (ring, white clothes) and the more raunchy implications ("YOU'VE BEEN MAKING [Hyperlink Blocked]!") I don't think it's accurate to say that wasn't the intent. It's a clear visual metaphor.

Giving Noelle the ring while she's wearing all white isn't a literal marriage. But the allegories are blatant.

I didn't think the Hyperlink Blocked line implied sex at all, to me it seemed more like it was referencing them killing people and getting stronger.
I also do agree that the toxic marriage symbolism exists, but don't you think consummating it (with rape) is an entirely different story...?
I have a hard time believing that any sexual symbolism was intended to be there at all, especially when Undertale prior and the previous chapters have very little sexual expression, let alone two teens being forced to have sex with each other.

dreamdivider said:
I didn't think the Hyperlink Blocked line implied sex at all, to me it seemed more like it was referencing them killing people and getting stronger.
I also do agree that the toxic marriage symbolism exists, but don't you think consummating it (with rape) is an entirely different story...?
I have a hard time believing that any sexual symbolism was intended to be there at all, especially when Undertale prior and the previous chapters have very little sexual expression, let alone two teens being forced to have sex with each other.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/qrgsrl/is_it_just_me_or_is_this_game_way_more_hornier/

People need to just touch grass and not everything needs to be like the porn they spend 90% of the day watching. It’s GOOD when a creative changes a problematic part of their game but these people who really should take a shower need to get off their high horses and shut up.

I prefer the old visual, it was more thematic. the change doesn't ruin the game though.

Holy shit these comments are doing so many different mental gymnastics at once I can't tell who's stupider. I swear the fandom can't go one day without blowing something way out of proportion.

scotch0fhorus said:
I am honestly extremely disappointed in Toby for retconning it. I know it's his right to update the game as he pleases but it frustrates me that he altered the game in response to how people interpreted it. And now some people are taking it as a reason to attack people for having had interpretation of Kris being forced to rape Noelle in the first place. It’s a very lame way to stamp out art interpretations. Also seriously Toby is a smart guy, he should’ve known what the deflowered rose represents so you’re telling me he was blind to the fact that a fandom known for theorycrafting would interpret it a certain way? It’s just cowardice at best and hack writing at worst.

That interpretation never made sense in the first place if you take your hands off your pants. Even if Toby was considering adding sexual assault to the game, do you think he would make it so that the player can accidentally, unwillingly, sexually assault a character without being explicitly told that's what they're about to do? Just say you're upset your fetish fanfic isn't canon and move on.

As someone who plays the switch version that hasn't been patched yet....how tf do yall interpret it as rape? You're equipping the THORN ring. Roses have THORNS. It's representing the thorn ring being from a rose, what is yalls problem???

hornycurse said:
As someone who plays the switch version that hasn't been patched yet....how tf do yall interpret it as rape? You're equipping the THORN ring. Roses have THORNS. It's representing the thorn ring being from a rose, what is yalls problem???

... you flunked English literature didn't you.

Yo guys you guys got any tips beating the roaring knight their beating ass.

zerobadarts said:
now thats just a straight lie, that was the first patch after the rose

Yeah i got it wrong, my bad

catman9222 said:
... you flunked English literature didn't you.

some times the red cuirtans are just red cuirtans, you english major.

questionablecretin said:
some times the red cuirtans are just red cuirtans, you english major.

"I can't read, I'm a Undertale fan!"

spicystick said:
"I can't read, I'm a Undertale fan!"

Why thank you for noticing, clearly we did both enjoy undertale but did you wach the video that explains all of it, no? check mate literacy enjoyer.

scotch0fhorus said:
I am honestly extremely disappointed in Toby for retconning it. I know it's his right to update the game as he pleases but it frustrates me that he altered the game in response to how people interpreted it. And now some people are taking it as a reason to attack people for having had interpretation of Kris being forced to rape Noelle in the first place. It’s a very lame way to stamp out art interpretations. Also seriously Toby is a smart guy, he should’ve known what the deflowered rose represents so you’re telling me he was blind to the fact that a fandom known for theorycrafting would interpret it a certain way? It’s just cowardice at best and hack writing at worst.

I'm mostly upset because the Delta Rune community is toxic and can't reconsile with their behavior in game as being emblematic of something fundamentally flawed in them. They did the Snowgrave and they can't accept the responsibilty for their actions.

I watching a video where some dork was getting pissy that kris didn't rape noelle

I don't understand why people think these things, nor will I pretend to, but all I'll say is if someone called someone else out of the loop and told them that they wish that noelle was raped in-game, despite toby very clearly wanting to stray away from that, it says a lot more about them than it does about toby.

Not to mention, its his game. He gets to choose what he does and doesn't keep or change. Art may be subjective but if the artist is given a platform to change the art as needed, they have every right to do so.

i think it's kinda sad how people are getting angry that we didn't actually canonically make a high schooler rape another high schooler tbh

Sidenote: Toby Fox based Deltarune off a fever dream he had in 2011, so this rape symbolism controversy raises a lot of questions about just what kinda fuck-ass cursed nightmare he had

EDIT: Preemptively giving my thoughts on the rape symbolism controversy, this whole debacle was a case of Toby Fox falling victim to tunnel-vision and failing to recognise the possible rape interpretation until people pointed it out.

This comment section is a war field

bighairy1903 said:
I thought he was undefined like Frisk, or am I just out of the loop?

Kris is never alluded being male or undefined in the story. It's arguable whether Frisk is undefined or not, but no one even hints at Kris identifying as masculine in Deltarune.

What did I just stumble upon? Also cute Noelle.

itfvidarchive said:
Look I know I'm just a lurker and shouldn't put my hat in the ring, but honestly I just think having that kind of implication would just get so much worse for the game as a whole. Unless he wanted a potential SA victim to immediately fall in love with their assailant and be excited to go to the festival the next day with them which would look so, so bad on Toby. Do things happen like that in real life? Sure. But let's not pretend it's good writing to give so few consequences to a character for doing something like that. So if he needs to remove something because he realized people were going too far with something - especially after enough people called it "the mindbreak route" - then I don't think it's so bad. Heck I didn't even know any of this until I saw this post, and I think that's the majority of people who played the SG route.

exactly, he never meant for it to be a "mindbreak" or "rape" scene, its just the scene where you stab her with the thorn, him changing it was for the best considering what his fans are willing to do.

orsonzedd said:
I'm mostly upset because the Delta Rune community is toxic and can't reconsile with their behavior in game as being emblematic of something fundamentally flawed in them. They did the Snowgrave and they can't accept the responsibilty for their actions.

They did the snowgrave, but Toby Fox created the snowgrave. It was clearly a path made to be tread, not a deficiency of character on the part of the player.

catofdeeppockets said:
exactly, he never meant for it to be a "mindbreak" or "rape" scene, its just the scene where you stab her with the thorn, him changing it was for the best considering what his fans are willing to do.

noncon, mind break, mind control, etc. poggies<3.

I think it's pretty obvious that the main reason to y changed it was due to backlash. Can't have even a semblance of something that could imply rape, am I right fellas?

Even then, someone mentioned that this is a far reaching project, that needs time to reach its climax, and honestly... I agree. Toby can't (or doesn't wish to) take big risk that threaten the reach of the game over a small (although VERY impactful) scene.

There is also the fact that the community is well know for being toxic and eager to harass artist/creators for doing things they don't like personally. In consequence there is now people who really object changes forced by the reaction of the community.

Overall, I think you should understand both sides.
Toby shouldn't be forced to change his art just because it's ambiguous enough that someone can get the ick from it.
And we shouldn't be attacking him because he did. Likely, what other choice do you think he had?

This is bs btw